Preserved Topic: **Important** Why is this? (Page 1 of 2)

There are plenty of worthwhile threads in this forum that get very little input from inmates. I have seen topics in the PhotoShop, Photography, PSPong and BigSig forums that have really good work in them, with plenty of scope for comments, crits, or even Participation that get hardly any posts at all!
I see only a handfull of people who regularly offer encouragement or advice, what about the rest of you?
Every time an idiot posts a topic, and you all should know which idiots I am talking about, they get dozens of replies.
Some fat arsed self-rightious Bigots who manage to form meaningless questions, with no thought for this community, only to feed their self centeredness manage to get exactly what they want attention
While trusted inmates (and friends) who must spend hours if not days, trying to complete a piece of work to present to you for your consideration get virtually ignored.
Why is this? Ask yourselves that question.

For example, I have been a member of the Asylum for just over a year now, in that time I have taken part in four PSPong matches, which I have really enjoyed and learnt from. I can tell you that Zigot_Bahn has had More replies to his most recent pile of vomit and bile, than I and my partners in PSPong have had in a whole Years worth of posts and games added together!!!
Again I ask you, why is this


:::tao:::

TAO i know how ya feel, trust me on this one

I think it all comes down to whose toes you might have trood on in the past, i certainly experienced this after a run in with one member of long standing... basically any of my posts died a death no matter what the content was...

so i went back to lurking and to dealing with a few people on here i valued their opinions, whilst those that would have been able to really help chose to ignore the threads i posted.. but thats my fault..

as for the other things you spoke of ya right ZB is a classic example... another is the one going on in philo and sillyness right now..

other times i am sure its because people dont want to suggest something that may appear stupid to someone else...

and to be honest some of the comments i have seen in some threads round here i am surprised that anyone posts work for criticism.. sometimes the help is great other times just plain rudeness is shown when talking about others work, being blunt is onething, but doing it tactfully is a lot better, tell the truth, but at least do it constructively...

this place has taught me loads, by chance i found my old login here from 4 years ago i think, maybe even longer...

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

filtering gets a bit old, but filter you must! I miss a ton here I reckon, mainly cuz I'm busier than I've ever been and I fear the contents of most posts anymore. This place is different the last year, or two, but there's plenty of fine stuff going on, as you pointed out Tao. My apologies for not supporting the good stuff like you say, it's a run and gun habit now, one I'll try to break, maybe.

quote:

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another is the one going on in philo and sillyness right now.

---

I wonder if you're talking about my post...
Can't we discuss silly stuff in a forum named "Philo and other Silliness"?

As for this thread, what's important to some, may not be important to others. As far as I can figure out from what I've read, the OzoneAsylum was created by artists for artists. But there are today lots of non-artist persons here. I am one of them.

And the question would be: why a forum directed to artists are getting the attention of non-artists? Maybe because there are some non-artists that want to be artists and sneaking what artists do and talk is one way to start. Maybe it's because despite that fact, even artists many times do not discuss only art-related matters? Hard to tell.

One thing is certain: if there is not too many replies to a thread, it means few people are interested or few people can understand or appreciate what's being discussed in that thread. You have to learn to live with it.

Oh, and by the way, thanks for advertising my silly-want-to-call-attention-of-everyone-here thread that's going on in the silliness forum. I need that. I need to call attention. The more you advertise it, the more people will go there, the happier I get. Isn't that so?

People are getting on with their lives. That, and the fact that the Asylum has degraded to near uselessness (at least for me).

Don't get me wrong, I visit this place many times a day, but it's just not the same as it was. This is mostly because the people who made it worth while have other things on their plates that are more important than listening to idiots banter back and forth and helping people who never appreciate it.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

mmm... I hear Naxxah, but mostly, I first came here as a PS / web noobie doobie... I learned a freakin ton here. Some people still post stuff that i learn from, but not all that often. Oh, and I have strayed from web design... anywhaoo.. It is not what the asylum has become, but what I have become.


Short answer, Conflict sells.


oh yah, if you wanna talk about no post... try posting some WIP's here. heh.


and there is always a "Zigot_Bahn" around the forums... thats nothing new.


[antique sigs are us]

[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 03-27-2004).]

Perhaps it was one of those Red Mists It's a bit too early for me to tell.
But.........
If there is one thing I know for sure, one constant in life, it is that everything changes in time. This is the natural way of things, and we are all part of it.
Knowing this to be true, it does not mean we have no influence on how things change, or what those changes are. Our actions do have an effect, and we are affected by the actions or inaction of others to a greater or lesser degree.
The Ozone Asylum has been a wonderful place for me to grow and learn, as I'm sure it has for many, many people. Indeed it still is, the humour, generosity, and friendship I have found here really has opened my eyes to what an online forum/community can be.

Mayhap it is just me, but I feel that there has been a lacking in positive input in some of the forums here of late, and I don't just mean the ones that happen to have "any of my new burps" in them. (Heh, that phrase brought a smile to my face InI).
I only mentioned the forums that I visit regularly, because they are the ones I know. I am too much of a dimwit to play an active role in any of the coding forums, although I hope to change that soon.
I have learned a lot from people who have taken the time to share their skills with me. If we do not continue to share our skills, techniques, tips, however humble we may consider them to be, then we are all the poorer for it.
I am not at all worried about mad posters in the Asylum, in fact I hope they stay around and learn to grow with us. I am concerned however, that we may tend to ignore the positive things that are going on here.
And if there are people reading this who may feel too intimidated to post, don't worry, we are all here to learn and share. If you do post a question and you get a nasty reply, I can assure you that I will not be the only one to show the author of the nasty reply the error of their ways.
It took me a long time to post any questions, but once I did I gained so much from the people here. Now the problem is shutting me up.



:::tao:::

*gets out some nice pretty shiny gray duct tape and sneaks toward Tao*

... mmm...

Yah, Yah. I miss the Doc. Miss VP's artwork. Miss the twitch^, DG, Wead banter of days past... Aint anything I can do about it though, except try to answer posts with quality answers. Alot of the time i dont find time for it though.


[antique sigs are us]

The old days were fun. The times when we burnt over 150 posts in the PS forum just kicking around ideas on how to illustrate glass like objects.

There's no doubt this place has changed. I've changed too. When I first came here I knew very little, and there was a lot on offer. Now, I know a little bit more that I did back then, but there are probably only a handful of people about that could answer the questions I have nowadays, if that. As such, I prefer to use ICQ or some such to contact those people directly, but for the most part I manage to answer my own questions.

The community model seems to work well for a grass roots level of information, but once you step things up a notch or two the system appears to buckle (just a reflection on the current state of the asylum). There are many reasons for this, but for the most part I think the general learning model and the relatively thin coverage of certain topics are the major factors here.

Yes, It's geared towards Web Design and Photoshop, and as such there are still a log of good people kicking around with knowledge in these areas, but beyond that things have pretty much stayed at a fairly low level. If I had a flash (or anything multimedia) related question, I surely wouldn't ask it here. The same goes for video, 3D and a handful of other things flying about here in a somewhat half hearted manner. It's nice that web have them, but their only really useful for the basics.

The strongest part of the asylum is in it's flexibility and broad coverage. I know a fair amount about a handful of things, but there are still areas in this forum I can lean things form. This has been the principal learning model of the forum from when I first came here and for the most part remains the same. Say Johnny is a PS god, but he can't code and wants to make web pages. He learns from Ben, the HTML master, who in turn is trying to get a grasp on PS, for which Johnny is more than willing to help out with.

It's almost utopian. But it appears to breaks down then you start trying to toss around higher levels of information. Does this need to change? Can it change?

I'd say no on both accounts, but keep in mind that whilst the asylum has some brilliant minds, there are probably bigger and better resources out there for any specific needs outside of the generalised "web design" focus.

I have to agree entirely. Most of the questons I have now I have to figure out myself. When I came here my photoshop skills were nill, but I learned a whole lot about the program and about design. I have all the neat tricks down that make things easier, I have the entire beginner thing down. I am now at the point where my questions are not photoshop related but art related. They have to do with my ability as an artist, which I can get feedback from here, but it just doesn't work as well as talking with someone in real life, and sketching with them, even if I have to wait longer the feedback is well worth it.

With my programming, I know how to get most answers without asking the questions. And oft time my questions tend to be very specific, and there is only like one or two inmates who might have even tried something like it.

As for providing the content to stimulate the other inmates, it often seems less than worthwhile, as many of the people here are not interested in the areas I am currently persuing, and I have to say as I have gained more knowledge here I have lost interest in many of the areas that some people find facinating.

We have a huge number of gifted people who still post here, they are not all gone, but the level of skills that those gifted members possess tends to very distinct.

The doc always had the quote "Specialization is for insects," even through that constant warning many of us have become insects. I am much more of a generalist than many of my real world counter-parts, I often get asked questions on a wide range of topics, but I have become a back-end specialist, or a applications programming specialist.

I can't add much to this, just that those of us who have spent a good deal of time here have grown here, and grown fast. Those who are newer have growing still to do.

I always felt the site went downhill fast when doc started adding different forums. It was much nicer when it was the simple few forums, and we could easily see what was going on with everyone in just a few clicks. Now there are so many forums that I don't even try to check them all. It is sad in a way, but good in another.

Dan
CodeTown.org

In a time honored asylum tradition
*runs through the halls naked after spraying himself from top to bottom with silver-grey paint*

And darn it, I haven't drawn anything in like a year!


[This message has been edited by Tyberius Prime (edited 03-27-2004).]

quote:

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Some fat arsed self-rightious Bigots who manage to form meaningless questions, with no thought for this community, only to feed their self centeredness manage to get exactly what they want attention
While trusted inmates (and friends) who must spend hours if not days, trying to complete a piece of work to present to you for your consideration get virtually ignored.

---

... it's a lot easier to ridicule someone than to offer a genuinely useful advice or critique.

but also, it's because most (if not all) retarded threads happen either in Ozone or Philo&silliness forums, and those get the most attention. I'm sure not everyone checks PSPong or Photography daily, especially the people who can't draw in PS or dont have the means nor desire to take pictures/look at them. But its so easy to click ozone, look for the name Zigot_Bahn, have 5 minutes of laughter and reply with something equally stupid.

"Plus one consideration: many, many, many people here act as spectators.
Although they enjoy reading through our rants,
they find it hard to... get involved. Why? Because... 'cause they are shy, scared,
feel they have nothing to show, feel we are "artsy mac types" and they are superior, etc."

Yah, that's me in a nutshell.
I haven't learned as much as some people have, here. I don't always have the time (like many others) to be so involved, and even if I were involved, I'd be reluctant to post things I make, as they are generally far below the quality of work generally associated with the PS section of the Asylum.

It's not fun to be looked at as a newbie. It's a neverrending spiral.

-Xel

Yay double posts.

[This message has been edited by Xel (edited 03-29-2004).]

I believe this place is not as it used to be. I remember what it was. But even then people felt this community was on its last legs, yet we remain. Change happens, it's the way of things.

I would like to think that there will come a day when this community undergoes a sort of revival. Many of the masters have gotten so busy with other things that they cannot devote the time they used to, but perhaps that is just a temporary condition? Just as things slowed down around here, they could always pick up again.

I say with a bit of perseverance and long suffering, the best days of this community may be yet to come. Stay tuned


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

I am taking more time to compose my answer to all the observations above, than I did for my initial post. I was stupid enough to post in a hurry, and judging by the replies, I did not get my point of view across correctly.
But I just wanted to state here and now that I do not think the Asylum is going downhill, or dying out, or anything like that.
If that is how it came across, I apologise, it most certainly was not my intention.
Now I will get back to writing a more reasoned reply, which I will post up shortly
::tao::

I apologise, I must hold my hand up and say ?I?m sorry?, I should not have said ?Some fat arsed self-righteous Bigots?. That was uncalled for, I was stupid enough to post in haste, and I now regret it. I was also not specifically referring to ZB as a ?fat arsed self-righteous Bigot? either.

I did not mean to imply that I thought people were ignoring me, and certainly not for something I may have said or toes I may have trodden on.

And I am not just talking about my posts and how many people think my ?work? is wonderful or otherwise, I only used the PS Pong matches as an example as it covers most of the time I have been at the Asylum.
I know not everyone looks at every thread all the time that is why I mentioned PS Pong, because it covered a whole year.

Quite a few people here have mentioned how they have learned a lot from the Asylum in the past. I know I have chatted with many who tell me their skill level in PhotoShop or Web design is due to a greater or lesser extent on the help and encouragement they have received here.
I know this is true for me.
One ?inmate? a while ago who, after spending a lot of time explaining to me how to do an animation and achieve the effect I wanted in PS, said to me. ?This is my way of giving something back for all the help I?ve received when I first came to the Asylum?.
Now that inmate, has advanced so much in his art that if he were experiencing problems with technique or imaging software, I doubt if many of us would have the skill level to be of any real help to him. Yet I still see him posting and helping people.

Have I got it wrong? Is not one of the reasons for the Ozone Asylum?s existence, to share and promote skills and techniques in Web and graphic design? As it happens, most of the people who have replied to this thread do help a lot with their posts and are very active.
I know I want help whenever I can, so I too can ?give something back?, and hopefully someday, if someone has managed to learn from what little I know they too will be able pass it on.

I want to repeat, I am not bemoaning the ?demise of the Asylum?. I am not wistfully wishing it was like the old days. I have not been here long enough for that. I am simply stating the facts that the participation level for the regular threads I mentioned earlier is very low compared to the volume of posts meaningless attention seekers who blather on about nothing in particular receive.
The Asylum, as is nearly everything in life, is what we make of it.
I hope this is received in the spirit in which it was written. That is, brotherhood and peace.
::tao::

quote:

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Is not one of the reasons for the Ozone Asylum?s existence, to share and promote skills and techniques in Web and graphic design?

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YES. I don't think you could have put the point any finer, tao. I think you have been more than clear and I for one appreciate your words on this subject


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

Very good words, Taobaybee, and much needed.

I remember when I first joined the Asylum there were over 70 posts to help with making an animated fire sig. There was a spirit of excitement, exploration, and discovery. I feel some of that has been allowed to diminish as members got older and busier.

quote:

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I would like to think that there will come a day when this community undergoes a sort of revival.

---

Bugimus, This place is what we make of it. Why do we need to wait? Let's start a revival now. It just takes one post at a time.




You are getting sleepy...sleepy. You will go to the North Wing....

Taobaybee, this subject is about the asylum and it's members posting habits, as such I don't see any way you can really separate these issues.

However, If you don't want to wade through meanness banter, don't read the Main Ozone or Philo forums. Actually, truth be told I have kinda stoped posting to and hardly ever read the PS forum, which use to be my main attraction to the asylum.

Nowadays, my semi daily rounds see me skimming thought the Ozone, Server side, XML, Javascript, multimedia and site reviews forums. Unless I have a rather specific reason I just don't read the other forums, mainly because I don't have the time and because I honestly don?t care. Sorry, but I don't, and I shouldn?t have to.

Of those forums mentioned above, the only ones I really respond to are the Multimedia and Site Reviews. More so for the latter as at least I can see people have put in some effort and aren't just looking for someone to fix their problems, which is what the majority of the asylum seems to be like nowadays. A place to chat about random shit until you have a problem with something, in which case you go post it so someone else can fix it, then you can get back to chatting about random shit. I respond to the multimedia forum because I'd like to see more of this at the asylum.

The current state of things is fine, it works, but many of the long standing members know it isn?t what it use to be. Bare with me as I try and put my finger on what it was way back when that made it special...

I seem to remember people jumping into topics to have a play regardless of their skill level. That's how we learnt and that's what made it so fun. No one really asked "how do I do X", things just kind flowed form 'ideas' rather than the problem solving model that seems to have emerged over the past couple of years.

I remember an episode a few years back when someone came in asking for help with something in the PS forum. This guy seemed to have put in some effort prior to asking and a few of us jumped in and started offering suggestions and ideas to kick around. All we got in return was cold shoulder. I figured this guy didn't have any confidence in our advice so I fired up PS and spent a couple of hours playing to give him some stuff to work with. I posted it, along with the PSD and all I got was "Oh, I can't do that, I'm not that good". That really pissed me off.

Moral of the story: If you come in asking for help, you better be prepared to get better (read, learn shit) when someone gives you the help you've been asking for.

Several months later I noticed this happening a lot, and once one of the PSD file I posted just got taken and used instead of the person learning from it. After that I just stopped. I wasn't getting anything in return. I wanted to actually help people and teach them, not fix their problems. But it seemed no one was actually prepared to learn.

There's only so many hours you can burn away doing this before it becomes disheartening. I'm sure there are still plenty of people out there who are willing to set that bar out of reach but go for it anyways, but my time is precious and I don't want to gamble it away helping people who might not actually give a shit. If you can find a way to fix that problem then I'd be more than happy to double or even triple the time I spend here, but until then I'll just stick to my regular routine.

I don't really see this as the asylum going down hill per say, it's just changed. The people have changed. I've changed. Good or bad? I can't really say. I think I'm in a similar position to Bugs. I continue to hang out here in a hope that things will liven up again some day. If not then I'll still hang around because I like the company.

For anyone reading this who has been reluctant to post something because they fear it isn't good enough. Post it! You'll never learn hiding in the shadows. Jump into the mix and make people want to jump in with you. If you just have some problem and don't know where to start, don't ask how to do X, ask why your having problems starting. The process is so much more important than the outcome. The process is where you lean, it's what you learn. The outcome is just a product of the process, nothing more.

[This message has been edited by Cameron (edited 03-28-2004).]

Wow.

Cameron: Well said. Thank you for posting this insight into the changes happening here.

Although it wasn't me, I am sorry for the cold shoulder treatment. I am fairly sure I have done that to other people. I am not an artistic person so to come up with ideas of things to draw and actually get a decent looking result is really hard for me.

I would like to see this thread change the current state of the Asylum.

Everyone: A very good and important message said. Thank you Taobaybee for broaching this topic.

________
Bradford

Adding to DG's motto:

PLay, fidle, learn and get involved!


I guess the new forum TP is working on will be a great help for better filtering.You are able to see "Who posted/ answerd what in wich section" in the last post field. So you could respond to
a) people who are known to do some effort
b) people who are new, with interesting 'problems'
c) all things you find interesting anyway. (this is about the only way you could filter nowadays i think)

I don't think the asylum should be 'answering machine to all your problems' furthermore i think if someone has some kind off problem he or she could post it here. If other people have likewise problems they should jump in an try to find a solution. When the problem is interesting for a lot of people there will be a lot solutions. All people involved should learn from it not only the guy who is posting the first post. So if someone post a silly problem wthout doing any effort it should still be answered by others who have simular problems to find a solution worth sharing (that is any solution). And That is the power of this community. We all know something even if you life in the shadows even if you are a pro.

So i call all pro's: don't be blunt if someone is asking stupid questions and i ask all spectators to get involved even if you don't know the 'right ' answer try to figure out any answer. And for all posters who want some answers try to be clear in your title (that could be the only thing people read) and in your subject (if people don't understand you you get stupid reactions).

And someone could put this on top of every page:
"We are all pro's on our own level, share your knowledge and learn with us"
I feel this sentence was, is and always will be the true power of this community.

my 2 cents (remember this?)


------------------------------
Do something usefull: support Justice for Pat Richard

[This message has been edited by Rinswind 2th (edited 03-28-2004).]

Rins, that would be my motto. Bleh!

My participation has dropped considerably. It's mostly due to the questions being asked in the PS forum. No one hardly asks "one of those" questions anymore. You know, those kind that intrigue me and picque my interest. I love those funky questions that require funky brain work.

Another reason is the birth of our daughter. She's going to be 2 years-old pretty soon. Just ask Bugs and Dufty about kids eating quality PS time. I think Bugs and Dufty.

But I'm still here in case one of those questions comes up.

Speaking of kids, someone wants breakfast.

play, fiddle, learn - is warjournal if I recall.

(yep, and there he is ^ while I was posting)


communicate, connect, flo - was DG's...that idea died ages ago. Nice memories though. One thought? Perhaps bemoaning the state of surreality isn't the most helpful way to rebuild it. Bitch and ye shall receive? Doubtful...just deceive. You're wasting space...change your own space, and maybe there's something worthwhile underneath it all.


Maybe there isn't....it just seems like a lot of disjointed lament these days.

Once walked Gods here...now it just seems to be prophets with grand stories.




[This message has been edited by DarkGarden (edited 03-28-2004).]

Woops....

It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! It was Warjournals motto! 1000 times...


Darkgarden be thankfull it is prophets not priests, or worse sect leaders
~shrudders~



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Do something usefull: support Justice for Pat Richard

quote:

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I don't really see this as the asylum going down hill per say, it's just changed. The people have changed. I've changed. Good or bad? I can't really say. I think I'm in a similar position to Bugs. I continue to hang out here in a hope that things will liven up again some day. If not then I'll still hang around because I like the company.

---

Amen... sad, nonetheless.... I miss F1 and Shi and a dozen other people.... I miss having fun here and figuring shit out... I miss a thread about CSS turning into a thread about wierd regexps...

...I also think the same about having too many damn forums, but I was voted down when it counted...I think the unity of the Asylum may have been sapped..

Whatever the case, the Asylum must either improve one day or die trying. 'Once walked Gods here...now it just seems to be prophets with grand stories.' Renaissance, anyone?


Code - CGI - links - DHTML - Javascript - Perl - programming - Magic - http://www.twistedport.com
ICQ: 67751342

Having only been around the Asylum for the last year and a half (going on two)I would like to remind all you 'Old Timers' of this:

//--------------------------------------------------

You can never step in the same river twice.

//---------------------------------------------------

The Asylum is still a fantastic place to pick up tips and techniques, or to get exposed to new ideas or perspectives, even if it's not the place it once was. This place is a valuable part of my life(and yes I do have a life!)even if I'm not the most prolific of posters.

I have learned a lot because of responses I have gotten to my posts, and not just coding either. Most of the threads in Philosophy & Sillyness that I have participated in have been full of valuable nuggets of wisdom, put there by some very intelligent and genuinely worthwhile people. Often, the words there have a very positive impact on my life.

Those of us who are neither 'Gods' nor 'Prophets', those of us who are mere acolytes, do our best to jump in and help solve problems or explore new possiblities. But most of us only frequent certain areas of the Asylum, some of us have had our hands full trying to become competent in one or two areas of webwork, even though we may dabble in them all.

My post count is embarrassingly low, and I won't try to claim it is because they have all been "quality" posts. I do like to just listen to myself talk sometimes and I have been know to jump in with a wise-crack now and then. But I will make a more determined effort to get involved in posts that will help other members (and myself) grow. I will gladly do what I can to encourage that growth because that is what others here have and continue to do for me.

Taobaybee:

Thanks for giving us all a little nudge about getting involved here in a positive way . The Asylum is a better place because of your presence, and as far as I am concerned the world could do with a few more like you. I visited your homepage and one of the quotes there was so powerful, so moving, that I feel compelled to thank you for posting it.

I am refering to the quote from Tecumseh. So much of it describes how I have tried to live my life; the rest of it is how I will try to live it from now on.

quote:

---

Tao:
For example, I have been a member of the Asylum for just over a year now, in that time I have taken part in four PSPong matches, which I have really enjoyed and learnt from. I can tell you that Zigot_Bahn has had More replies to his most recent pile of vomit and bile, than I and my partners in PSPong have had in a whole Years worth of posts and games added together!!!
Again I ask you, why is this

---

Maybe people are considering on checking the tutorials first before asking or posting to the threads in PSPong forum, just maybe.
Don't take these stuff seriously, I advice.

I feel you got the photoshop and the photoshop-pong forum confused, yannah.
The first one is the one people come to with strange graphic problems,
while in the second one, they play photshop pong.

But you're right. Taking stuff seriously is usually a problem.

Good discussion!
I've been hanging here since mid 2000 and I'd have to agree, it's different now.
On the other hand, what doesn't change over time?

Personally I believe that a lot of the change here is due to the fact that we all grow up over time, with growing up a learning to learn process takes place.

Back in 2000-2001 there where some ppl here that had a knowledge way beyond the rest of us, fortunatley these ppl also used (and still do) this knowledge with a desire to teach. The rest of us had/has a burning desire to learn and this combination is what really put this place way above the rest of the bunch!

Now, as a lot of those that really wanted to learn has learnt the basics from the pros, and has also learnt how to learn more themselves, just as WarMage and Cameron says.

This coupled with a large growth of new ppl that in the beginning aren't used to the demands that you really really have to give it a try yourself before you can get more than general pointers from the old crew here. Those who adapt to that way of thinking will get the help they need to learn more themselves, those who don't will either stay spectators or leave, some quietly, some loudly.

I'm not one of those that post a lot, but I do try to chip in whenever I feel I can help.
However, since I usually put a lot of effort into helping I also want something in return, some sort of reply that tells me that the person I invested my time into actually read and learned from my response. I think that probably goes for everyone here that has an interest in teaching their fellow man, because that's what this place really is, a place for teaching and learning.

What has kept me here over the three+ years is the simple fact that I'm getting back what I put in, an effort! That makes all the difference in the world to me.

I use different forums for different needs, if it's advanced PHP on a conceptual basis I tend to look elsewhere, should I need PS help I stick around here, however, I usually search the FAQ or the archives first due to the fact that *all* of the questions on my PS level has been asked and answered a multitude of times.

But I still love this place and it's inhabitants!
We all grow up and new generations are added, so it changes, just as life does.
/Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

Whoo! Heavy topic!

I too, have noticed a slight decline in the quantity of instructional postings... For a while there, in the PS forum, we had a lot of "RTFM" in answer to basic questions. While, for the most part, this can be warranted, I think that such a rough response to a query tends to scare newbies off, for fear they will get severly flamed.

The other factor I've noticed is the increase in availability of digital graphics software. PhotoShop LE often comes packaged with a scanner purchase. Digital cameras often have stripped down image programs with them... More and more mainstream folks are playing with digital graphics - and they are not necessarily interested in the all-consuming task of learning what you can do with the software, but only interested in acheiving a one-time effect. This type of software used to be very industry specific... Now it's almost as common as MS Word...

Not that I want to encourage loads of graphical dilettantes to post gobs of questions that could be answered by a simple look in the manual or help files. I'm just noting that fostering a love of the subject at hand probably could begin better than with a terse "RTFM". I realize that many of gurus among us probably get really tired of answering the same inane questions about basics over and over... but perhaps that's an instance where someone slightly less new should take the chance to help someone else learn. Once the newbies get brought up to speed, they start asking more complex questions - that should be where the gurus come in... (Unless the original question catches your fancy, of course!)

I've often thought that if we replied with a little more sensitivity to some of the simple questions put to us, new inmates would feel more comfortable in coming back to ask about more complex things. Got to run through all the filters and effects before you figure out how to actually create real art with the tools at hand...

As for the Philo & Silly forum, as well as the Ozone forum, well, that's where we spend our time when there's nothing of real interest in the other forums. I usually scan all of the forums that I feel worthy to contribute to, but lately, I haven't seen a lot in any of them that begs for my specific input. So I scope out the 2 forums where there's always something going on... In the past year, my time online has been severely limited due to the constraints of life in the "real world"... I sort of miss being able to be here... but also haven't had the time to contribute my own work either... All of my projects are suffering for the time being.

Perhaps all that is needed is a renewal of commitment to teaching and learning from all of us. We should try harder to respond to posts with real thought, even if it seems that the original poster isn't paying attention any more. Surely someone else will come along and find something valuable in what's been said.

quote:

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Cameron: Several months later I noticed this happening a lot, and once one of the PSD file I posted just got taken and used instead of the person learning from it.

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The Asylum has always stressed the importance of intellectual property rights. The fact that some unscrupulous person would stoop to claiming another's work as their own is a little distressing. There has to be a way to provide the instruction, but not leave oneself open to such theivery... It's definitely worth consideration. Like everyone else, I truly hate lazy people - but there are so many more worthwhile folks who want to learn from what most of us do with such apparent ease...

I've tried to participate and get things going with some threads, mostly Photoshop or painting but I usually end up being disappointed in the lack of interest/participation. I fully understand people are busy and have moved on so I basically have too. I go in spurts with this place anyway. I'll visit several times daily for a month or two and then not check the forum for weeks. But for the most part, I now get my painting/art fix over at Concept Art which has loads of people with the same interests as me.

It's a shame though... there's this massive FAQ you guys have worked on but it's basically hidden to new people. I rarely click forum FAQ buttons since they're usually about forum policies. This one is different though and I don't think it's at all clear (at least it wasn't to me in the beginning) the amount of info available here if you know where to look. To an outsider, this place seems like your regular basic forum, there's little hint to the wealth of info contained within....unless you count your small little FAQ button.

Anyway Tao, I'll probably participate more again if others do too. I feel like an idiot posting stuff here half the time because no one responds and it's disappointing... so I go elsewhere.



Amerasu

I still think that Taobaybee fella could have/should have phrased it better in the first place. Having already written a pre-apology, apology in his cell concerning "red mists" he should have known that when they do decend, he should not attempt any form of communication for at least 6 hours.
norm I have that quotation by Tecumseh up in my cell as well. It really does mean that much to me. Every so often in life, if you are lucky, you find a gem like that.

:::tao::: ::cell::

quote:

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TP:

I feel you got the photoshop and the photoshop-pong forum confused, yannah.
The first one is the one people come to with strange graphic problems,
while in the second one, they play photshop pong.

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Yes. I must have.

Well said, bodhi23 ~golf clap~

Things have changed here since I got hooked.
Shit happens.
Walk it off.

Seriously, it`s the people here that set the atmosphere. We are the inmates in control. ~shivers~ If you want to give the Asylum something it`s lacking, do it. Maybe it`ll catch on.
I miss people that no longer come here, too. (as in real life) People that taught me, criticized me, inspired me, poked me , prodded me, ran large amounts of electricity through me, stabbed, slashed, slapped, infected...
sorry, I got side tracked...
ANYway, if you want to see more helpful posts, post more helpful stuff.
If you want to see more "how would you do this" posts, post more "how would you do this" stuff.
If you want to see more challenges, post a challenge.
If you want more "noobs" to go away, tell them to RTFM, or show them the FAQ. I mean, that`s not real interactive, is it?

Yea, Petskull, I`ll take a cup of that Renaissance.
~wanders off muttering...'Now where did we put those gods?'~

/me pokes DB

^ with that said, it brings me to my point. Online communities are all about exactly that. Community. And most communities I'm still in have lost that "big family" feeling. Hence I rarely post.

[This message has been edited by Raptor (edited 03-31-2004).]

Someone above mentioned that the increase of access to image editing software might be a cause for some of the hardships people have been discussing. I think this is a very valid point and it?s something we should probably be thinking about a bit more.

The web and the entire 'digital medium' as we know it has changed. It has been changing and it will probably continue to do so. Over the past couple of years we've seen a large amount of back-yard or garage designers filter into the mix of everything digital. This is both a blessing and a curse. More people having access to these kinds of tools are generally viewed as good things. It's when these people spill over into the areas that for a while only the trained professionals would venture into that we start to see potential problems.

Many of the people here are well trained and practicing professionals in the various fields of Graphic Arts, Illustration, Design, and Information Technology. When this starts to mix with people who treat such things as mere passing interest you get a lot of friction. It's something many people are probably starting to notice happening to web based design related communities all over the net.

We're also starting to see the lines between disciplines being blurred in educational courses. "Multimedia" defiantly blurs the lines between information technology and the graphic arts, yet people still tend to lean one way or the other. This is creating a group of people who are confronted with issues they don't want to deal with, and they are turning to the virtual communities for solutions. I've seen plenty of this ?sub discipline? apathy in fellow students throughout my years at University. I myself have had personal issues with the 3D animation side of multimedia and will probably continue to wrestle with this for some time. However, untill I make a dedicated commitment to resolving my issues I'll restrain myself from trying to rape solutions from my peers.

Again, weather or not this should be viewed as a "problem" is largely questionable, even in an educational context. If it is, how you'd approach trying to "fix" it is even less clear as it brings forth another whole batch of highly debatable and equally difficult questions.

Just thought I'd throw it in as something to think over.

[This message has been edited by Cameron (edited 03-31-2004).]

I've always considered the Asylum as somehow very different from most of the other online graphics/programming/web design forums I've visited... The people here who got me hooked mostly do this for a living and approach each question with a serious thought to resolving the problem/question at hand. I think it makes a huge difference in what we expect of each other too.

It may be that a big part of the reason we lash out so harshly at wandering trolls and complete n00bs, is because it's obvious from their posts that they are either not interested in true learning, or that they are just looking for some place to waste their free time.

A lot of our long time inmates take this place very seriously as a community of professionals dedicated to their respective industries - not just your average, every day forum. As such, there's so MUCH knowledge here! This community, and the Guru's Network are the best places I've ever found on the web for graphic/web/programming information. I constantly refer people here who have questions about certain things...

But yes - this place is what we make it. Threads like this give those of us who've been around here for a while a chance to look at what we see wrong right now, and make a concerted effort to redirect the forums.

Bodhi- try not answering individual users, but poke and prod at the general community.. sort of what Wes did in this thread

... you might want to read this on how we fit together as a community- Is There a There in Cyberspace? - OZONE Asylum, home of the Mad Scientists


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