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galaxal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From:
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 21:38
Hey, ozones.com looks like is 100% handcoded, or at least close to 100%, this is something I admire of and I support this spirit. Alot of people got frustrated after they started a short time hand-coding, I do too.
so I just drop a line while passing by and see how many of you guys choose to hand-code instead of wysiwyg.
hao
The Best Evidence That Time Travel Is Impossible And Never Will Is That We Have Never Been Visited By Travelers From The Future
--John Hawkings
Do you Agree?
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Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 21:55
nah, I must say that all the sites I get paid for I make in dreamweaver and such.. I only hand code the ones I make for myself because it's fun and there's no deadline on those...
tskull@techie.com"> 
"You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps." --Anonymous
ICQ: 67751342
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F1_error
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist
From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 22:18
Actually I only do hand coding, in fact if I have a client that insists I use some editor I will charge more since they put together horrible and nasty code that has to be cleaned up.
It's my opinion (and only my opinion so nobody get pissed) that people who use editors are just lazy and can't figure out how to do proper code. I feel sorry for the editor people, I really do. HTML is not that hard to figure out, or make work properly. On the other hand, getting good clean code from an editor is something that will never happen. Editors always put in extra tags or leave tags out, making things a sloppy mess. Of course if it wasn't for people using editors, I would have as much work as I do.
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Reve
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From: I own you at Quake
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 22:41
Its not really laziness, its just lack of time, theres just so much better/funner thing to do rather them learn html. Why learn it if dreamweaver will do it for you, even if it is messy.
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DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994
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posted 10-15-2000 22:46
It wasn't until late 1998 or so that I *ever* used a graphical editor, and it was FrontPage! AGGHHhh!!!! When I create a website, the whole design part hinges around me, creating one really perfect template. Typically, the template will have only a very few areas that need updating to make them look like the different areas and pages on the website. (The menubar, whatever it is, the header graphics, ditto, and the content.) Since I really only have to do this once, and I *need* it to be perfect, I handcode. I don't have to do everything from scratch each time, I can usually take an older site of mine, strip out the middles, and now I have a basic setup, with <head> and <body> and the outlines of a style sheet and javascript. Tables I can do easiy enough, and all the really tough code is tough anywhere I do it, Dreamweaver variants of Javascript and DHTML snippets might work in some very basic manner, but not good enough.
Now, to make things clear and put them in perspective, I am a perfectionist. I like my code to be brilliant and perfect every time. I know several designers who do perfectly adequate code using dreamweaver, good enough to do their jobs. High level work, however, requires a personal touch, and really benefits from the extra miliseconds that can be gained by doing tight, clean code. Tight clean code can only come from hand coding, IMHO. Any magical do-it-all editor will shoot for the lowest common denominator, making it easy for the *program* to know what it did, and why. Human brains are better at this kind of stuff, heh. My 2 cents!
Your pal, -doc-
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DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994
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posted 10-15-2000 22:47
OK, one more comment on this! Hand written code is *faster* than generated code, if it's done properly, that's why we do it. Also, if you are then going to have to use that code to build teplates for a database driven site, you need to know what bits need to be staic, and which dynamic, which means going in and getting your hands dirty. If your only aspiration is to make a few websites here and there, do whatever seems best for you, but! If you're going to do this as a career, learn to do HTML, it'll give you a HUGE edge, and it really ain't that hard...
Your pal, -doc-
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Nimraw
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From: Styx
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 22:54
Ahhhh!
FrontPage must be the prime evil from the Microsoft imperium (in close contest with the dreaded PowerPoint)!
Regarding Code vs editor I usually combine. I'm not that great with DHTML so I use Dreamweaver to create parts of the code, but I always end up in Notepad to adjust and redo a few things.
When it comes to standard HTML I usually handcode if I'm not in a big hurry. For me it's quicker to draw up tables and so on din dreamweaver, but as I said: The final step always is Notepad.
Could of course be that coding is a minute part of my job <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">
<edit>Nerd note: It always make me happy though to see nice handwritten code. That's like a work of art. </edit>
-nimraw
If you can't convince, confuse!
[This message has been edited by Nimraw (edited 15-10-2000).]
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mikey milker
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist
From:
Insane since: Apr 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 23:02
i've written the html coding for every page i've ever put on the web completely by hand... which means i've been using notepad since early '97 or something horrible like that.
i did make one web site originally using hotdog, but it never got posted to the web because i was so frusturated with how crappy WYSIWYG editors are... and that's how i ended up using notepad, i actually wanted to control what was happening.
last year i worked in a journalism computer lab on campus where they taught html to new people by first forcing them to hand code, then they'd "graduate" to dreamweaver. that has to be the most moronic thing i have ever seen and i said it to the head of the department, as well as the students and their instructor. the head and the teacher really didn't appreciate it, but it was also a nightmare for me because i had to help tons of newbies with hand coding.. argh. by the end of that first assignment, most of the pages turned in to the teacher had been mostly written by me.
and what did i do? i made sure to put in the comment of the html that i had written most of it because the instructor was a moron for teaching html in that way, it went over really well. thank god i'm only a journalism minor...
anyways, i think the best way to learn html is to snag a WYSIWYG editor and use it for a little bit to get the general understanding of page layout and stuff... but don't get stuck using those editors, because they really stunt your ability to create or even have any idea of what is going on.
as for the excuse "i could hand code, but i use an editor because i don't have time and who really cares about html anyways."
well fuck.. if i'm going to bother trying to do a project, then i'm going to do it the right way. the complete waste of time is doing a job in a half-assed manner, there's no excuse for it.
oh yeah, as a final note i've discovered something very nice about hand-coding sites lately. when you're in a meeting with a client at their office and they point out something on the site they want changed, they're REALLY impressed when you can jump on the computer right there and change everything on the fly using a text editor.
they ask stuff like, "you understand all of that?"
"definitely, i wrote everything by hand from scratch. the reason your last page was so hard to work on was because your old designer used a program and didn't really understand how HTML worked."
"wow, that's great! i'm really glad you're our new designer."
and from there on out, they just appreciate you and your knowledge that much more... plus you start charging them more because they think you're god, haha.
(sorry for the long-winded response, but i just got back from a nice bike ride and i've got lots of adrenalin going still, haha)
cheers.mikey.milker
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galaxal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From:
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 23:33
damn, I was out for like an hour, and you guys flooded with responds already...
I made my http://www.galaxal.com with dreamweaver, and when you open the source, you see < tr> < td> blah blah< /td>< /tr>
repeadily, repeadly. made the download busy, the cpu busy, that's because the lameless of the wysiwyg, they are good for newbies (like my school secretaries in the main office, hehe, they even have trouble using ms word). sigh. but anways, I made that like one year ago, I didn't know js at all then, if I did, I would just write a script and generate all damn thumbnails on the wallpapers sections.
well, I agree with you all, Notepad is ultimate.
actually, wait, when writing javascript, I really do wish I could have a txt editor that can color the variables and all other stuff, also show the lines and columns. That would make it easy for all.
hey, if you know a program like that, please tell me.
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F1_error
Paranoid (IV) Mad Scientist
From: EN27
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-15-2000 23:41
While I don't use an editor, if I *do* need to see code color coded I use 1st Page 2000 http://www.evrsoft.com/ the fact that it has TIDY built into it, is a gem in itself.
Good luck.
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galaxal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From:
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 03:13
wowowowowowwowowowowwo
1st page 2000 is way too good to be a freeware.
I do recommand it, but not to insert < body> or < p> tag for you, but to write scripts, it colors the code for you and make your scripting process much easier.
thanx F1
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vogonpoet
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: Mi, USA
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 03:35
hand coded?.. I try and use my feet nowadays.. more of a challenge!
actually.. I combine both methods... a bit of one a bit of the other...
I appreciate how Mikey feels, but some of us have to earn a living!!!
thats my 2 pennies worth! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
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eyezaer
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist
From: the Psychiatric Ward
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 03:56
well, i must say i have never codded a page only by hand... i really havent made that many pages though. FrontPage2000 has been my friend for 2 years i guess... Dont wory MM, i just use it to hand code in now, to make tables, and to do quick previews. It really got me started, but now i wanna break all its rules... HA... I just started messing with docs mouseover code... it does not like ME!!!! i sure hope the definitive guide to JScript comes in the mail b4 i hurt myself.......
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Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 04:12
Mikey... seriously.. I simpathize..
I'm still very romantic about hand-coding a page... that's why my personal pages are hand-coded...
but remember that some of us have bosses that want your magic for after lunch and you're no longer dealing with a work of art, you're working on a product.
The rules change.
If I was still freelancing, then I would be getting paid extra for my extra effort and I could settle down and make pages I am totally in love with , but I'm not and .. I'm not...
Dude, trust me-- I understand where you're coming from on the issue. But understand me --I need to eat.
"You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps." --Anonymous
ICQ: 67751342
[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 16-10-2000).]
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eyezaer
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist
From: the Psychiatric Ward
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 05:14
just so you know.. i got Docs code to work for me... you guys would laugh your little selves silly if you knew what all i did trying to understand it and to get it to work.... heh heh... now i am off to get that flourish code to work! bye!
hey, petskull, great sig... i was reading posts and though there were more flashy lights going off in my eyes until i looked directly at it.
[This message has been edited by eyezaer (edited 16-10-2000).]
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falling_softly
Nervous Wreck (II) Inmate
From: canada
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 05:33
editors frustrate me, i find it more flexible to use notepad.
melancholic.net
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JKMabry
Maniac (V) Inmate
From: out of a sleepy funk
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 06:11
I use a visual editor then tweak (read: find that one !@#$% pagekilling bug)in First Page 2000. Yup that color coding kicks major butt and it's free!!! Anyone know when their new version is coming out?
I've found that there's tricks to using the visual editors so your code comes out a little cleaner: you gotta have a clearly defined plan of attack for the page you're building. I'd say 50% of the junk code generated is from going back and editing your page in the visual editor.
I have to agree with Mikey on the "client thinks you're God issue". I've been there myself in the office and whip out MSnotepad from off their Start menu and do a fixer upper real quick and they crap. The guy said "what the hell you want with notepad? I've got Word..."
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Babamba
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From: my mother
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 06:27
I write *most* of the coding by hand in the dreamweaver 3 html editor part. I do very little with the the WYSIWYG part of it. I just like the fact that it colors my coding and I have it set to capitalize my tags.
<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif"> be a man and use your hand <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">
~Aaron
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Reve
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From: I own you at Quake
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 06:38
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galaxal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From:
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 08:29
oh, Babamba, if you use DW3 to color your coding, that's a big waste, first of all DW3 is big, second, it costs you, since you already have it, you don't care that part.
but anyways, I just want to recommand you to get 1st Page2000 from www.evrsoft.com, F1_error just recommanded it to me this afternnon, it's awsome and I am in love with it already, as I said earlier, it's too good to be a freeware, it's light too. Get it.
it's copied Homesite, heheh, it's not as powerful as homesite, but it does come with useful script packages. Get it!!
The Best Evidence That Time Travel Is Impossible And Never Will Is That We Have Never Been Visited By Travelers From The Future
--John Hawkings
Do you Agree?
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Ron Gallant
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 15:00
Started in 95 with Netscape Editor. Loved it, it sucked but hey...
Same year picked up Homesite and forced myself to learn HTML.
Still using homesite. I fight the people at work everyday to STOP USING NET OBJECTS and WEB SPHERE EDITOR. GOd they suck so bad. I am forced to use Net Objects everyday because you can't edit the site witout it.
So you have a huge vote for Homesite and straight HTML. Faster, cleaner, and gosh darn it just more fun.
P.S. If you use Notepad, get a life! As they said above there are some awsome free editors that speed editing up and you can still enjoy knowing you did it all by hand. Just more efficiently.
K I use Notepad SOMETIMES...
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Petskull
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: 127 Halcyon Road, Marenia, Atlantis
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 15:02
In response to the 'read: find that one !@#$% pagekilling bug' issue
I like the coffeecup editors that just kinda highlight your code in pretty colors and nitpic your mistakes and convert all your tags to uppercase.... they're kinda nifty...
The Coffecup Imagemapper automaticaly generates the painstaking work of getting the perfect shape and location in your image maps and does nothing but spit the code back at you....
you might want to check them out...
I code in editpad, but when I'm debugging and looking for misspelt tags and such, they rule...
tskull@techie.com">
"You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps." --Anonymous
ICQ: 67751342
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vogonpoet
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: Mi, USA
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 15:05
tmi Reve! lol.. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
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ZOX
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Southern Alabama, USA
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 15:23
I guess my choice also comes from lazyness - I am too lazy to learn how to use an editor <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">
Actually, nowadays I use Homesite for almost all the pages I make. I like the way I have full control of the code, and yet I don't have to type ever little letter by hand.
The few times I have used Dreamweaver I have found it easy in some ways, especially to make tables and such. But it does put in a lot of code that I do not want, which makes it harder to change anything afterwards. And I probably spend as much time removing code afterwards that I saved by using Dreamweaver in the first place.
The times I use notepad these days is when I I just want to make a quick change to a page without wanting to open up Homesite.
And Mikey, I do recognize what you say about impressing people by being able to change pages right away using only a text editor.
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ZOX
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Southern Alabama, USA
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 15:39
I just downloaded the 1st page 2000, and I like it so far.
It seems similar to Homesite, but maybe it will not mess up my system as much as Homesite tends to do at times.
Has anyone else that uses Homesite noticed how it tends to stick in front? Like when I have it open and press alt-tab to switch to Netscape, but it will stay on top.
The built in scripts in 1st page 2000 might be useful too... I need to check this out a little more.
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la'dsasha
Neurotic (0) Inmate
Newly admitted
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posted 10-16-2000 16:16
i always code by hand. the only programs i use to create code are things like flash to generate the plugin info or whatever my current favorite image mapping utility is.
i have been hand coding since winter/early spring of '99. the only way to learn html is to code specifically for netscape.
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Weadah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: TipToToe
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 18:32
Hey Zox : I've been a Homesite user for a couple years now. It has at times done all kindsa silly things. I still have hassles from time to time with the internal viewer, but I just keep thinking that with every version they fix a few more bugz. Not much help, but yah I've had that problem.
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Ron Gallant
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 19:20
Yip, same here. Many bugs, still a sweet program. I still use 4.0 because when I tried 4.5 it was even more full of bugs. But that was 7 months ago.
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galaxal
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From:
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 20:42
what os are you runing homesite on?
I am on NT, I do'nt seem having any problems.
actuallly, I used it only a couple of times.
well, I'll walk around with it and see what's wrong
The Best Evidence That Time Travel Is Impossible And Never Will Is That We Have Never Been Visited By Travelers From The Future
--John Hawkings
Do you Agree?
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bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 21:27
I have always handcoded all of my pages. I just write cleaner code. I tried using a WYSIWYG for a while but I found that if I actually took enough time to learn the prog I could learn to write HTML. (this was in the early days of dreamweaver and Homesite so they were not quite as intuitive.
Mostly I have found that all of these editors suck at any type of DHTML.
Finally with my current gig I need to code everything by hand. We use a dynamic production tool (Vignette Storyserver) which is a template based tool this means that on a lot of areas of a page we need to stick funky tags in to draw content and image for expamle a common image call looks like this src="[SHOW rootimg]callforhelp/banner_[SHOW thissection].gif"
Which means that doing these pages outside of this sytem is pointless.
(All the stuff in the brackets is Tcl code BTW)
Anyway if you want to "go pro" learn to hand code. Most big web shops require it
Walking the Earth like Kane
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mr.maX
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: Belgrade, Serbia
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 21:36
Hi all,
I would like to point out that there is also another great free HTML editor available (besides 1st Page 2000). It's called MAX's HTML Beauty++ ME and it's available from http://www.max.co.yu/htmlbeauty/
BTW And not that it's only great - it's also created by me! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
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ZOX
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Southern Alabama, USA
Insane since: Sep 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 21:50
Uh oh...
Another sig besides Mikeys and a few others that makes me feel guilty to even have the Asylum open in a browers at work <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">
Sure, I am reading it to learn more about graphics and webproduction, but someone seeing the screen from a distance might get other ideas <g>
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kretsminky
Maniac (V) Inmate
From: A little lower... lower... ahhhhhh, thats the spot
Insane since: Jun 2000
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posted 10-16-2000 23:19
I have always hand coded anything I do. I have never even used Frontpage or Dreamweaver.
I do use HotDog now, but I still write my own code. I like how it underlines typos for me so I don't have to catch them later. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
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DocOzone
Maniac (V) Lord Mad Scientist
Sovereign of all the lands Ozone and just beyond that little green line over there...
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Insane since: Mar 1994
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posted 10-16-2000 23:50
Hah! I knew this thread would take off. I hand code, but as for notepad, yuck! I rely on HomeSite on the PC and BBEdit for the Mac. Homesite has an FTP function built in so you can open documents from the server, that's nifty. Mainly I like the color coding, it's essential to me, and line wrapping and line numberinging are handy too!
HomeSite does suck bigtime when doing extended search and replace from the server, I usually do big searches like that on my offline version and then upload it. (BBEdit doesn't have this problem, but then, it only works on offline pages!) Homesite will hang when it's busy with something, like one of those searches I mentioned. You can do something else, but forget the app until it's done.
Mikey, I know the song and dance where you convince your clients that you really *are* god, and their last designer was a neanderthal (and not a very bright one!) Heh. One of the toughest things to do is acquire the trust of the client. Blowing them away with your hands-on mastery of one of the basic tools that mystifies them, that works OK. :-)
Bitdamaged! Thank god someone else is working with some packages like this. I've done some analysis of the Vignette ackage, but it was great for content management, and lousy with e-commerce stuff, IMHO. (Proabaly would have worked, but I trust my own experts on this one.) All of these packages do the same thing, hacks into the server to allow it to parse new %%squirrely%% tags or ##other weirdness## with all sorts of new things that
<droplet src="foobar">
<oparam name="default">Look really wierd</oparam>
</droplet>
and screw up any of those graphical editors, big time, heh heh. Wanna make webpages? Do whatever is the right thing for you. Wanna be a professional, earning the "big bucks?"? Learn to code.
Oh, one last note! Someone mentioned speed, say9ing that a graphical editor was faster. I disagree. Let's sit down side by side, I can code a complete site in about an hour, once I have the graphical bits all ready. All by hand, of course. When I'm done and the piece needs changes ('natch!) I can usually do it by manipulating one or two templates. You might be able to hack out an example with a graphical editor to bring to a client meeting, but such sloppy work will add weeks to the overall development time of a big project. Trust me, I know big projects.
Your pal, -doc-
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bitdamaged
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: 100101010011 <-- right about here
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 00:26
Yeah I agree about the e-commerce stuff. We are a content site so it works for us. We are working on adding some e-commerce functionality but this will probably be built on outside systems. We have a lot of outsourced tools that work independent of Vignette like our chat, message boards etc. It's not the best system in the world but hey what is?
Walking the Earth like Kane
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Phil
Bipolar (III) Mad Scientist
From: Eastbourne, UK.
Insane since: Mar 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 00:30
On a par with 1st Page 2000.... http://freeware.acehtml.com/
if you like editors that is......
[This message has been edited by Phil (edited 17-10-2000).]
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vogonpoet
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist
From: Mi, USA
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 01:00
hey Doc.. gonna pick ya up on the 'speed' comment!.. not all of us can type at 80 wpm! lol... some of us still suffer from the ole 'fat fingers' ! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">
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Rikimaru
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: MD
Insane since: Oct 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 01:40
Since ya talk about this, Can ya help me?
Hello there, I just got hit by a Car and lost all my memories... So I really need some help here... Can ya list some of the basic URL and infor how to get start on to become a computer program? Coding ect... I mean for a Begin people... Thanks...
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Babamba
Paranoid (IV) Inmate
From: my mother
Insane since: Aug 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 04:04
Hey max, thanks a lot. I just happened to open your program with my parents here. kinda fun explaining it to em. NOT!!! next time, put a lil warning up or something.
~Aaron
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rotren
Bipolar (III) Inmate
From: Camrose, Alberta, Canada, Hörnefors, Västerbotten, Sweden
Insane since: Jun 2000
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posted 10-17-2000 04:23
I often use Dreamweaver to make a quick and dirty layout, then I go in and fix it as I *really* want it with a text editor. The editor I prefer is UltraEdit. www.ultraedit.com
All DHTML I do with a text editor. I want control!
If you want to learn HTML well, there is no alternative but to dig into it and learn the nitty-gritty stuff and to learn from mistakes (and successes).
That's my humble opinion, anyway. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif">
Cheers.
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