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Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 06-17-2004 18:56

June 17, 2004
PRISON ABUSE
Rumsfeld Issued an Order to Hide Detainee in Iraq
By ERIC SCHMITT and THOM SHANKER

WASHINGTON, June 16 - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, acting at the request of George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, ordered military officials in Iraq last November to hold a man suspected of being a senior Iraqi terrorist at a high-level detention center there but not list him on the prison's rolls, senior Pentagon and intelligence officials said Wednesday.

This prisoner and other "ghost detainees" were hidden largely to prevent the International Committee of the Red Cross from monitoring their treatment, and to avoid disclosing their location to an enemy, officials said.

Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, the Army officer who in February investigated abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison, criticized the practice of allowing ghost detainees there and at other detention centers as "deceptive, contrary to Army doctrine, and in violation of international law."

This prisoner, who has not been named, is believed to be the first to have been kept off the books at the orders of Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Tenet. He was not held at Abu Ghraib, but at another prison, Camp Cropper, on the outskirts of Baghdad International Airport, officials said.

Pentagon and intelligence officials said the decision to hold the detainee without registering him - at least initially - was in keeping with the administration's legal opinion about the status of those viewed as an active threat in wartime.

Seven months later, however, the detainee - a reputed senior officer of Ansar al-Islam, a group the United States has linked to Al Qaeda and blames for some attacks in Iraq - is still languishing at the prison but has only been questioned once while in detention, in what government officials acknowledged was an extraordinary lapse.

"Once he was placed in military custody, people lost track of him," a senior intelligence official conceded Wednesday night. "The normal review processes that would keep track of him didn't."

The detainee was described by the official as someone "who was actively planning operations specifically targeting U.S. forces and interests both inside and outside of Iraq."

But once he was placed into custody at Camp Cropper, where about 100 detainees deemed to have the highest intelligence value are held, he received only one cursory arrival interrogation from military officers and was never again questioned by any other military or intelligence officers, according to Pentagon and intelligence officials.

The Pentagon's chief spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, said Wednesday that officials at Camp Cropper questioned their superiors several times in recent months about what to do with the suspect.

But only in the last two weeks has Mr. Rumsfeld's top aide for intelligence policy, Stephen A. Cambone, called C.I.A. senior officials to request that the agency deal with the suspect or else have him go into the prison's regular reporting system.

Mr. Di Rita referred questions about the prisoner's fate to the C.I.A.

A senior intelligence official said late Wednesday that "the matter is currently under discussion."

In July 2003, the man suspected of being an Ansar al-Islam official was captured in Iraq and turned over to C.I.A. officials, who took him to an undisclosed location outside of Iraq for interrogation. By that fall, however, a C.I.A. legal analysis determined that because the detainee was deemed to be an Iraqi unlawful combatant - outside the protections of the Geneva Conventions - he should be transferred back to Iraq.

Mr. Tenet made his request to Mr. Rumsfeld - that the suspect be held but not listed - in October. The request was passed down the chain of command: to Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then to Gen. John P. Abizaid, the commander of American forces in the Middle East, and finally to Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the ground commander in Iraq. At each stage, lawyers reviewed the request and their bosses approved it.

A senior intelligence official said late Wednesday that the C.I.A. inquired about the detainee's status in January, but was told that American jailers in Iraq could not find him, perhaps as a result of the chaos and confusion of the November and December spike in insurgent violence.

The detention was first reported in this week's U.S. News & World Report. But the role played by senior officials in deciding the detainee's status was not known publicly before Wednesday. Pentagon and intelligence officials gave new details on Wednesday about the prisoner and the circumstances that brought him to Camp Cropper, including the fact that his status was decided by Mr. Tenet and Mr. Rumsfeld, and approved by senior officers.

While acknowledging mistakes in the prisoner's detention, the senior intelligence official said the detainee posed a significant threat to American forces in Iraq and elsewhere. "He also possessed significant information about Ansar al Islam's leadership structure, training and locations," the official said.

At Camp Cropper, some prisoners had been held since June 2003 for nearly 23 hours a day in solitary confinement in small cells without sunlight, according to a report by the international Red Cross.

The suspected Ansar official was segregated from the other detainees and was not listed on the rolls. Under the order that had filtered down to General Sanchez, military police were not to disclose the detainee's whereabouts to the Red Cross pending further directives.

The prisoner fell into legal limbo as the military police pressed their superiors for guidance, which has still not formally come.

"Over the course of the next several weeks, the custodians at the prison asked for additional guidance, but there were no interrogations," Mr. Di Rita said.

Before this case surfaced, the C.I.A. has said it had discontinued the ghost detainee practice, but said that the Geneva Conventions allowed a delay in the identification of prisoners to avoid disclosing their whereabouts to an enemy.

In Washington, the Army announced that Gen. Paul J. Kern, the head of the Army Matériel Command, would oversee an Army inquiry into the role military intelligence soldiers played in the abuses at Abu Ghraib. General Kern replaces General Sanchez as the senior officer reviewing the findings. General Sanchez removed himself from that role so he could be interviewed by investigators.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 06-18-2004 09:37

I understand your point Jester, because I share it (Rumsfeld is so incompetent...). Why Mr Bush hasn't sacked him is beyond me. But as long as the President doesn't throw him to the wolves, and the wolves are just sheep, nothing will happen.

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 06-18-2004 19:53

WS, but you don't dislike Rummy because of what Jestah points out here, do you? I thought you disliked him because you don't approve of his methods of making war. You favor action against Iran for instance and I doubt Jestah would. If Rummy was Powell, then wouldn't you be much more in support of some of our recent military action? I'm just trying to better understand your opposition to Rummy.

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WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 06-19-2004 19:02

You know why I am against Mr. Rumsfeld, Bugs. I will always hold him accountable for the wasting of lives in Iraq. I'm certain that Jester does not support my positions on a lot of things. But that has nothing to do with Mr. Rumsfeld.

He needs to go.

Why are you questioning what my stances are, when you already know them? I have not changed them.

If Mr. Rumsfeld was Mr. Powell...*shrugs*

Dreams are nice.

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 06-20-2004 00:45

I did not know that was THE reason you disliked him, honestly. I thought you hated his changing from the Powell doctrine to his methods. As I recall, you were railing against him before we even began to prepare for Iraq. You were complaining about how he was going to deal with Afghanistan.

Besides it never hurts to make sure that I've properly understood my friend's positions on such things.

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WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 06-20-2004 17:14
quote:
Besides it never hurts to make sure that I've properly understood my friend's positions on such things.



Well, that's true enough.

Yes, I was against Mr. Rumsfeld for other reasons as well, before Iraq - Iraq just cemented my resolve.

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Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 06-22-2004 15:17
quote:
The Pentagon has declassified a number of memos about interrogation techniques used at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba.

The memos were all signed by Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Among them is a directive signed by Mr Rumsfeld in October 2002 authorising a technique called "water boarding" in which a prisoner is strapped down, immersed in water and made to feel as if he is going to drown.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1137852.htm

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 06-23-2004 04:00
quote:
Main Entry: torture
Function: noun
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING



All of these revelations have me thinking the definition of torture is probably being tortured. It would seem to me that making someone believe they are going to die constitutes torture. But I'm sure there is torture and then there is torture. Some would consider sleep deprivation to be a form of torture but I wouldn't have a problem with using that method.

The administration flatly denies authorizing torture but then release memos describing water boarding. Either this was a goof or they don't consider water boarding torture.

"Water boarding" does not sound like an appropriate method of interrogation to me. I have to ask myself what is the difference between having a man stand on a crate thinking that if he fell off he would be electrocuted compared to making a man think he would be drowned to death.

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Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 06-23-2004 04:31

What is or is not torture is a tricky issue. Sleep deprivation, uninterrupted lighting, cells too small to lie down in, sensory deprivation, etc. wouldn't be allowed in UK (or European) prisons and I would certainly be concerned about such 'torture lite' but I can see in some circumstances it may be required.

This officially sanctioned torture is well over the line and really can't be distinguished from hooking up a car battery to someone's genitals.

I had a bit of a look around and this page is good:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/torture/definition.shtml

quote:
The UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment refers to: "an act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person", for a purpose such as obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation or coercion, "or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind".

..........

The Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture defines torture more broadly than the UN Convention. It includes as torture "the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish".



And I think the emphasis on mental as well as physical torture is important (you can torture someone just by whispering in his ear that you are going to rape and kill his family after all).

If I thought I could avert another 9/11 or find a kidnapped family member then I'd reduce someone to dog meat if it would get me the answers I want but in someways our society has to help smooth out such personal instincts and if we want to progress morally the whole must aim to be better than what our indivdual instincts would be. Al Qaeda can't kill us all but they might be able to force us to live our lives in fear (when we are in more danger crosing the road) and they can make us debase our values.

Currently everything we are doing is serving to make the problem worse and its going to take an awful long time to regain the moral high ground.

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